Patch Poll: Should Cities Pay to Arm Police Officers with AR-15 Assault Rifles?
A city in Iowa felt the heat when officials wanted their police officers to pay for their own assault rifles.
Marion, Iowa, doesn't often draw the national spotlight, much less for the inner workings of city government.
But, last month, Fox News and the Washington Post came calling about an item on the City Council agenda.
In the wake of the Sandy Hook Elementary shootings in which a young man used an AR-15 to gun down 20 first-graders and six school staff members, Marion Police wanted to arm officers with the same weapons.
The Marion Police Department asked the city to pay $50,000 for 25 AR-15 assault rifles for their officers. The catch was, the officers would have to pay the city back for the weapons out of their own pocket.
The detail about making the officers pay for these weapons sparked a debate, and seemingly put pressure on the City Council to reconsider who is going to pay.
What do you think? Should officers have to pay for these weapons?
Dawn Ask Martin
9:03 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
If these guns have any place at all, it is certainly not near civilians. Police officers should not have them, nor be required to pay for them.
maxine weimer
11:05 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Dawn, how are the police officers supposed to do their job if the attackers have much better weapons than they have? That would be like giveing the bad guys guns while the police can only use sling shots! Think about it, if you or your family really needed protection, wouldn't you hope the police could provide that for you? Well they need the best tools to do that and the AR-15 is an excellant weapon of choice for riots or attacks. Every police force needs to have these weapons on hand at all times. I don't mean the officers should carry them like they do their handguns, but if needed, they should be able to get them.
Blue Mann
9:13 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Our government has said many times that the only purpose of an AR-15 is to kill people, perhaps many people at one time. It is therefore my opinion that the police should not be armed with AR-15s.
maxine weimer
10:57 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Blue Mann....if the attackers are armed with them, and they would be, what are the cops going to do against that? These weapons need to be at hand at all times otherwise the police are useless up against that kind of attack.
James
9:35 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Don't make the officers pay it back. But get them as another means of defense in case it's needed. And yes Blue Mann, you are on the money. AR-15 is to kill people., and will be very useful in the defense of Citizens. You should look up how many Al-Quida terrorist are in the United States, you never know when they will strike, and yes it will happen on American soil. Not to mention the nut jobs out there. In DC, officer have them, also in New York and California.
maxine weimer
10:54 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
+3 James, good comments
Kurt B.
10:08 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Isn't this a repeat of a blog that was on Patch a week or so ago ?
And, I question this : $50,000 for 25 rifles = $2,000 each. WHERE are they buying these ? They don't cost that much.
Blue Mann
10:18 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
I hear you, Kurt. I own several AR-15s and never paid anywhere close to $2000 for any one of them, even with AimPoint and EoTech optics.
maxine weimer
11:13 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Yeah Kurt these weapons can be bought for less than half of that. And here is another question...if the police officers are forced to pay for them, does that mean if they leave the force they will be able to take them with them? What if, and it does happen, that an ex-police officer goes nuts for some reason, then he has his own AR-15, but he they had to purchace their own, it wouldnt be fair to have to leave it with the force if they were fired or whatever.
B.A. Morelli
10:43 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
In the Marion case, the pd decided they needed the weapons; the chief essentially said if bad guys are out on the streets have these weapons the police charged with protecting the public should also. The officers felt strongly enough that they would pay out of pocket.
maxine weimer
11:15 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
B.A. ......does that mean if they leave the force the weapons would be theirs to take since they paid for them?
B.A. Morelli
12:33 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Good question, Maxine. I don't know for sure, and I can ask.
maxine weimer
10:53 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Well I live in Marion, and my thoughts are that AR-15s do have a place within the police force. I don't expect to see every officer carry one as he does a handgun, but there are certain situations where they may be needed. And James you are spot on with the comment about all the terrorists right here in America. They are just bideing there time untill its the perfect time to strike. And it would not be anything a handgun could take care of. Even if every cop dosen't have one, the force needs to be prepared and have them on hand if needed. Look at it like this, if there was a terrorist attack or a riot or any other big threat from a large group wouldn't you rather the police could stop it and not have to try to take them out one at a time with a handgun? You know the attackers would have AR-15's or better, so the police need to be as well armed as they are.
Kurt B.
12:01 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Maxine - good comments overall, but I think you are visualizing something that may never happen. ( It might, of course , but chances are it won't , at least not on the scale most of the comments are visualizing ). Most of the terrorist attacks on the other side of the world involve suicide vests or car bombs. No rifles at all.
If we go with the picture you have painted that all the attackers will be armed with AR15's, we'd better make sure the cops have M60's or larger ( 7.62 ammo, or larger , maybe even 50 cal. )
And, for Stephens comments : the worst massacre in our modern day USA involved a student with 2 handguns. All the cops outside ( at V T ) had lots and lots of AR15's but it didn't do a bit of good. The guy was inside the building with the doors chained shut.
Stephen Schmidt
1:28 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
@Kurt B. That's a good point, I don't think the AR-15s or gun control (more guns or less guns) sadly will completely prevent the carnage caused by motivated, deranged individuals who want the highest body count possible: the Oklahoma City bombing and 9-11 fit this profile tragically well, extremists causing brutal destruction with a truck full of farm chemicals, and airplanes hijacked with box cutters.
When it comes to public safety, it's all about maximizing the percentages for what you can reasonably anticipate is likely will happen, but of course you can't anticipate every situation. That's true whether you're for more gun control or for police with heavier weaponry.
Stephen Schmidt
11:07 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
This happened 15 years ago, so I'm not surprised it doesn't get more play, but two armed bank robbers in body armor with modified fully automatic AK47s and AR15s (with illegal high capacity ammo drums) were able to fight off practically the entire Los Angeles police department for a disturbingly long time because the LAPD, using standard issue handguns, did not have the firepower to get through their armor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrlUsaYlKPs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
Swat eventually showed up, and some officers ran off and bought some AR-15s from local gun dealers and the two bank robbers were killed. (Somehow the bank robbers did not kill anyone). California responded with more stringent gun control, which is another debate, and I believe the LAPD also upgraded their arms.
In a perfect world, I'd prefer if officers only had nonlethal rounds such as rubber bullets and bean-bag packs. But I suppose my view is in the light of these rare cases, is until America gets its guns under control it's not surprising that officers wil want to protect themselves and the public with higher fire power
maxine weimer
12:18 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Kurt, it may not ever happen but I would much rather the police could just go back to their department and get what they needed instead of having to go purchase them if they are needed. Strange things are happening in smaller communities everyday and one can never predict the future and I still feel it is better to be over prepared than be sitting ducks.
maxine weimer
11:22 am on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Stephen I remember this situation and I believe the police have to be armed as well or even better than the attackers or its just useless. People think those things always happens in other places, but you cannot take it for granted, someday it could happen right here in Iowa and I would rather the police force is prepared for it.
Stephen Schmidt
8:10 am on Monday, February 4, 2013
I have since looked it up, and in California they actually did both: increased their gun control (actually it was more ammo clip control) and the LAPD did add more high-powered rifles. Although, as pointed out below, they were almost certainly the semi-automatic and not the fully automatic variety.
Shane Blanchard
12:15 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Good thing this need has not came up in Waukee. However if it does, and our officers ask for it, and give reason for it. I would support arming our Police Officers with an AR-15, if its a means to protect the Citizens of Waukee. It would remain The Property of the Police Dept. These are trained, honorable men that put their life on the line to serve and protect
B.A. Morelli
12:35 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
I talked to a couple other police forces this week that have a few officers on each shift, or a specialized unit, that carry these weapons, but not each officer. In Marion they have a specialized unit that carries AR-15s already, but not every officer, which is the direction they are moving.
Jim Zupan
1:51 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Maybe your officers are honorable men, but not all are. I can not see putting an AR-15 in the hands of someone like ex DSM officer Brandon Singleton.
Shane Blanchard
4:24 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
@Jim. Neither can I. I don't think any person would approve of giving a weapon to someone like that. However I won't be in Fear of one bad cop causing concern for the safety of Citizens and Officers.
Stephen Schmidt
8:05 am on Monday, February 4, 2013
@Shane and @Jim. That's an interesting point. I wonder if there is any legal liability problems of officers owning their own equipment, since police are justifiably scrutinized heavily (or should be) whenever they use force, especially deadly force. If they are using the city's equipment this might afford them more protection in this case? I'm not a lawyer so that answer isn't clear to me, might be an interesting question to ask as the story develops.
Also, does anyone know the percentage of police officers and military personnel that keep their service weaponry after retirement or discharge respectively?
maxine weimer
2:26 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Jim this is exactly what I was talking about when I said there are alot of ex-cops that don't need to have an AR-15 in their possesion just becuse they bought and pd. for it and then got fired or left the dept. The police dept. should pay for the weapons so the remain a part of the job for the next officer. And I don't believe the job of police officer has a strong enough mental examination before they are hired.
Paul French
4:00 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
I believe officers must have weapons equal to or better than criminals. It is the city responsibility to pay for equipment necessary for their officers to perform their duties.
maxine weimer
4:26 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
+3 Paul.....I agree.
Joe Dygas
8:11 pm on Sunday, February 3, 2013
Regardless of the type of weapon and equipment a given police department decides to use, it is incumbent on the department to provide said equipment to their officers. The AR 15 is Not an Assault Rifle. Military Assault Rifles are automatic weapons and were banned from civilian use by the 1935 machine gun law.
Stephen Schmidt
8:13 am on Monday, February 4, 2013
So no "Tommy Guns" for the Marion Police then? What if Zombie Capone returns from the grave to start a new criminal empire? ;)
steve ho
8:52 am on Tuesday, February 5, 2013
The city pisses away money quite foolishly at times, this would be something useful